Discussion:
Shedding light on a David Irving claim
(too old to reply)
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-01-31 20:53:44 UTC
Permalink
I was reading a letter from David Irving when he claims that PS-1553
contains identical quantities of Zyklon B for Oranienburg as for
Auschwitz for early 1944.

"Dear Editor,

I just read Beatrice Faust's article on the Holocaust. As the "Nazi
historian" (your odious phrase) at the centre of the controversy, can I
comment as follows? --

BEATRICE Faust (Jan.15 -16) has fallen for much of the mythology of the
Holocaust.

Can I take up one point? "The fact that Zyklon-B was used in small
quantities as a pesticide is hardly evidence that it was not also used
in large quantities for the gas chambers." In fact even Jean-Claude
Pressac, the Holocaust historians' own tame historian and expert on the
technique of gas-chambers, states that 95% of the Zyklon-B delivered to
Auschwitz was used as a pesticide.

As for the bills of lading for shipping the Zyklon to SS
Obersturmführer Kurt Gerstein, to which Ms. Faust refers, I checked a
few months ago on the surviving originals at the National Archives in
the United States -- a country I can still freely travel to.

These bills of lading run from Feb.16 to May 31, 1944 and reveal an odd
thing: the cases of cyanide crystals (Zyklon) are numbered in sequence
(Nos. 50,053 to 50,210), so none is missing; each shipment consisted of
thirteen cases, totalling 195 kg (not "2 1/2 tons"); and identical
shipments -- six each -- went to Auschwitz and Oranienburg
concentration camps, although nobody has ever suggested there were gas
chambers at Oranienburg.

Yours sincerely

"
Now as I understand PS-1553 and these invoices were all supplied by
Kurt Gerstein who basically turned up to French Intelligence (please
excuse the oxymoron) and waved them in their faces and shouting "I
confess, I tried to halt the slaughter of innocents but failed"

Am I to understand from this that half the Zyklon B invoices Gerstein
had were for Oranienburg? I have only seen two reproduced 14 of Feb
and 30 of april (the series end of on May 31) both to Auschwitz. And
presumably they are all marked "Ohne Reizstoff". David Irving is being
misleadingly pedantic when he says "not 21/2 tons" as the entire series
of shipments does add up to 2/1/2 tons.

Did the Zyklon B trial produce any invoices for Zykon-B?

As far as the Gerstein invoices are, the invoices appear to have been
mimeographed at some point - the Degesch shield and letter head has not
reproduced well. And the invoice number, 49376, is positioned at an
odd point on a slant at the bottom middle of the page.

The fact that all the invoices have adjacent product numbering suggests
that Degesch was only selling Zyklon B to Kurt Gerstein over this
period. And his 12 trips in 3.5 months suggests he did little else
except ferry large quantities of Zyklon B around.

I wonder if the Oranienburg shipments were simply a case of keeping
your options open at that early stage by the Allies, perhaps they might
want to have had a homocidal gas chamber at other camps.
Have the Oranienburg invoices been put online anywhere?

Ta
Sara Salzman
2005-01-31 21:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
I was reading a letter from David Irving when he claims that PS-1553
contains identical quantities of Zyklon B for Oranienburg as for
Auschwitz for early 1944.
I was reading David Irving's website, where he seems to think that he
WON his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt and that "she must pay."

How could you possibly take seriously anything said by this delusional
and disgraced idiot?

Sara
--
I'm not a denier..Some Jews died of typhus and stuff, I will acknowledge
that..
--- Little Child Tommie
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-01-31 21:09:45 UTC
Permalink
Where did I say I took anything he said seriously?

But he made a specific claim that half the invoices that Kurt Gerstein
produced for 'French Intelligence' were to be sent to Oranienburg. As
far as I am aware no one challenged him when he made this claim in
court. And so I presume its true.

I am rather interested in the fact that all the invoices are for
consecutive numbering of Zyklon B because it does appear from this that
Degesch was only supplying Kurt Gerstein with Zyklon B during this
period.

As for my other queries they are in the original post.
Sara Salzman
2005-02-01 00:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Where did I say I took anything he said seriously?
But he made a specific claim that half the invoices that Kurt Gerstein
produced for 'French Intelligence' were to be sent to Oranienburg. As
far as I am aware no one challenged him when he made this claim in
court. And so I presume its true.
Right there. Are you really so thick you don't understand?

You said "he made a specific claim." That is, the last time I checked,
the same thing as "something he said."

Maybe no one challenged it because everyone knows he's a liar, an
anti-Semite, and a Holocaust denier.

Ever think that could be it?

Do you think that people have nothing better to do than to refure every
idiotic statement made by some loony in London?
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
I am rather interested in the fact that all the invoices are for
consecutive numbering of Zyklon B because it does appear from this that
Degesch was only supplying Kurt Gerstein with Zyklon B during this
period.
As for my other queries they are in the original post.
--
I'm not a denier..Some Jews died of typhus and stuff, I will acknowledge
that..
--- Little Child Tommie
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-02-01 01:05:46 UTC
Permalink
Well here is Mr Irving's examination of Van Pelt, so there seems to be
complete agreement on the matter
"MR IRVING: Am I right in suggesting that identical quantities, broadly
speaking, of Zyklon-B were delivered to Auschwitz and Oranienburg over
the time covered by those 12 invoices?

A. The invoices talk about identical quantities to Oranienburg and
Auschwitz. But the important question is, is this all the deliveries of
Zyklon-B to Auschwitz? Then we have to go back to actually the origin
of these .

"
So was the case that half the invoices were directed to Auschwitz (ie 6
of the collection Gerstein apparantly had on him) and half to
Oranienburg. Thats my understanding of this.

And from the consecutive numbering of the cases, Degesch was only
selling Zyklon B to Gerstein over this period.
Sergey Romanov
2005-02-01 16:21:09 UTC
Permalink
Van Pelt's analysis of Zyklon/Auschwitz/Oranienburg issue is available
online. Even someone with one cerebral hemisphere cut out, like
Kurtsie-Blandish, can find it.
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-02-01 21:25:17 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately Van Pelt is both a perjurer and highly and indeed
intentionally misleading in his work.

Although I read his work with interest, sadly, he is only fit to be
published in such 3rd rate publications as the Journal of Genocide
History, and other pseudo history far left hate publications.
Sergey Romanov
2005-02-01 21:49:36 UTC
Permalink
But you still can't address his arguments. Ad hominems are what
"revisionsim" amounts to.
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-02-01 21:54:35 UTC
Permalink
What arguments have of his have I not addressed?

In anycase my main point is that if we are to trust these invoices it
would appear that during the period of mid Feb to beginnning of June,
Degesch was only selling Zyklon B to Kurt Gerstein in all of Europe.

I doubt van Pelt really discusses that issue. Although I do think he
conceded the invoices were "not normal".
Sergey Romanov
2005-02-01 21:59:13 UTC
Permalink
You have addressed none of his arguments.
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-02-01 22:10:56 UTC
Permalink
Possibly, but then he has addressed none of the points I was interested
in. We have probably discussed the same documents but looking at very
different issues.

You might equally say I have addressed none of Albert Einstein's
arguments either.
p***@comcast.net
2005-02-02 02:24:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Possibly, but then he has addressed none of the points I was
interested
in. We have probably discussed the same documents but looking at very
different issues.
You might equally say I have addressed none of Albert Einstein's
arguments either.
And in both cases it would be for the same reason: you are not
qualified to.
--
Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even
supposing knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be
content to be ignorant than would take even a little trouble to
acquire it."

Samuel Johnson
Sergey Romanov
2005-02-01 22:27:52 UTC
Permalink
The Oranienburg stuff has been addressed, so you lied again, stinky
Kurtsy.

Actually, it can be addressed in a single sentence. Only minuscukle
amounts of Zyklon were used for gassings.
Debunks2005
2005-02-01 22:47:36 UTC
Permalink
Subject: Re: Shedding light on David Irving
Date: 2/1/2005 1:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
What arguments have of his have I not addressed?
In anycase my main point is that if we are to trust these invoices it
would appear that during the period of mid Feb to beginnning of June,
Degesch was only selling Zyklon B to Kurt Gerstein in all of Europe.
All in all, from what I have read to date, Mr. Gerstein was a rather enigmatic
individual...apparently many of his claims do not stand up under scrutiny.
Sara Salzman
2005-02-02 01:27:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Unfortunately Van Pelt is both a perjurer and highly and indeed
intentionally misleading in his work.
That's a fascinating accusation.

Perhaps you could provide proof of this libelous assertion?

Or maybe you'd care to explain why Judge Gray believed van Pelt and
called IRVING a liar?

Or maybe just give us ONE example of his "intentional misleading" work?
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Although I read his work with interest, sadly, he is only fit to be
published in such 3rd rate publications as the Journal of Genocide
History, and other pseudo history far left hate publications.
Since, as far as I can tell, no such "Journal of Genocide History"
exists, your entire statement is idiotic.

Face it. You're way out of your league here.

Sara
--
I'm not a denier..Some Jews died of typhus and stuff, I will acknowledge
that..
--- Little Child Tommie
Kurt Knoll
2005-02-02 02:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Judge Gray agreed with the Jewish mafia and still has his job what else
is new.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Post by Sara Salzman
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Unfortunately Van Pelt is both a perjurer and highly and indeed
intentionally misleading in his work.
That's a fascinating accusation.
Perhaps you could provide proof of this libelous assertion?
Or maybe you'd care to explain why Judge Gray believed van Pelt and
called IRVING a liar?
Or maybe just give us ONE example of his "intentional misleading" work?
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Although I read his work with interest, sadly, he is only fit to be
published in such 3rd rate publications as the Journal of Genocide
History, and other pseudo history far left hate publications.
Since, as far as I can tell, no such "Journal of Genocide History"
exists, your entire statement is idiotic.
Face it. You're way out of your league here.
Sara
--
I'm not a denier..Some Jews died of typhus and stuff, I will
acknowledge
Post by Sara Salzman
that..
--- Little Child Tommie
Gord McFee
2005-02-05 01:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Unfortunately Van Pelt is both a perjurer and highly and indeed
intentionally misleading in his work.
Yet another reason why the craven little creep Ewan posts under a
pseudonym. He could be looking at a lawsuit if he used his real name.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time

Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-02-05 01:45:25 UTC
Permalink
If Van Pelt would be interested in sueing me I suggest he emails me.

I would be happy to call him a perjurer and highly misleading under my
real name if he guarantees to take me to Court.

I shall await an outraged email from him.
Kurt Knoll
2005-02-05 02:30:45 UTC
Permalink
I did watch Van Pelt performing on television do me he looks more like a
good actor whit his gestures reaching in the sky.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
If Van Pelt would be interested in sueing me I suggest he emails me.
I would be happy to call him a perjurer and highly misleading under my
real name if he guarantees to take me to Court.
I shall await an outraged email from him.
p***@comcast.net
2005-02-05 19:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
If Van Pelt would be interested in sueing me I suggest he emails me.
I'm sure he cares as much about you as he does a hang nail.
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
I would be happy to call him a perjurer and highly misleading under my
real name if he guarantees to take me to Court.
Of course you would, because you're an imbecile.

But then we must thank you for focussing such attention on the methods
of Holocaust deniers.
--
Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even
supposing knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be
content to be ignorant than would take even a little trouble to
acquire it."

Samuel Johnson
c***@yahoo.com.au
2005-02-05 21:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Well, Phil I was merely suggesting the possibility because Gord
suggested that this was the reason by handlers advised me to post
anonymously.
In fact they said if you post anonymously exterminationists will not be
able to harass you publically as a denier. Although they said you
should be aware they will still attempt to do so - simply they will not
be able to wrap themselves in the shroud of the Holocaust victims.

As for Van Pelt, anyone who talks about a patent for a fantasy
crematorium 'found' in Auschwitz complete with patent number, and then
says maybe the patent was never granted (ie there is no record in
Berlin) is a perjurer. The Berlin Patent office did not grant patent
numbers to applications it never received. And he did this under oath.
He is a perjurer, for this and many other reasons.
p***@comcast.net
2005-02-05 22:06:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
If Van Pelt would be interested in sueing me I suggest he emails me.
I'm sure he cares as much about you as he does a hang nail.
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
I would be happy to call him a perjurer and highly misleading under my
real name if he guarantees to take me to Court.
Of course you would, because you're an imbecile.

But then we must thank you for focussing such attention on the methods
of Holocaust deniers.

=======================
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Well, Phil I was merely suggesting the possibility because Gord
suggested that this was the reason by handlers advised me to post
anonymously.
So you can led around by the nose by the very next person you meet.

[...]
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
As for Van Pelt, anyone who talks about a patent for a fantasy
crematorium 'found' in Auschwitz complete with patent number, and then
says maybe the patent was never granted (ie there is no record in
Berlin) is a perjurer.
No he isn't.

Once again you're just not intelligent enough to know what you're
reading.
--
Philip Mathews

"Mankind have a great aversion to intellectual labor; but even
supposing knowledge to be easily attainable, more people would be
content to be ignorant than would take even a little trouble to
acquire it."

Samuel Johnson
Kurt Knoll
2005-02-05 02:28:36 UTC
Permalink
Gord demonizing you opponents has always been a Jewish way.

Kurt Knoll.
=
Post by Gord McFee
Post by c***@yahoo.com.au
Unfortunately Van Pelt is both a perjurer and highly and indeed
intentionally misleading in his work.
Yet another reason why the craven little creep Ewan posts under a
pseudonym. He could be looking at a lawsuit if he used his real name.
--
Gord McFee
I'll write no line before its time
Visit the Holocaust History Project
http://www.holocaust-history.org
Sergey Romanov
2005-01-31 21:14:28 UTC
Permalink
You're too stupid for a 13-year old girl, Kurtsie.
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